Tag Archives: Simon Grey

Christian Masculinity

I asked what the Christian alternatives to game were. Whether in response to me or progressing independently, the masculine orthosphere has started providing the foundations. Rather than drown my most recent Lightning Round, I decided to put it all here. Besides, this is important enough it deserves its own post rather than getting lost.

This last week has been a flurry of activity and the foundations of Christian masculinity are being laid; or rather, the old truths of men lost to modernism are being reborn. (Read the entire posts, not just the blurbs. I’m serious).

I’m not going to add much myself here, but I think a collation of the beginnings will be a good thing to be able to refer to later.

First, Chad has a new blog who’s mission is clear:

The modern world does not know masculinity… The modern world does not know God… It certainly has no clue what Godly Masculinity is.

Let us begin to change that. To pull Masculinity out of the Depths, the sewers, the refuse where it was left stagnant to rot. Let us go into the traditional wisdom of our Fathers to find God again in the Wilderness, and clear a place there for him so that we can learn, worship, and obey.

Let us, as men, find what it means to have a Godly Masculinity in our soul. It will be hard, painstaking, and might break us. It will bring us Faith, Hope, and Charity when we are remade as Sons of the Father.

He also defines the masculine:

A man is masculine when he has acquired the ability to change the world around him. The more he is able to change the world, the more masculine potential he has.

Simon Grey outlines God’s basic purpose for man:

Now, I’m not a trained theologian, but it sounds like God’s basic purpose for man consists of leaving mom and dad, getting married, having children, and working. It’s too bad MRAs weren’t around back them to explain to God that he just wanted men to “man up” and that this was nothing more than feminism couched in shaming language. Perhaps God would have gotten it right had he been advised by MRAs, and consequently told Adam to live with his parents, remain single, and live in a virtual reality world instead of working. That would have prevented an untold number of problems.

Donal discards game as an infirm foundation upon which to build a toolbox and begins to rebuild a foundation for Christian masculinity:

That is the graphic representation of it. I think that most of the work on this project will be focused on the Frame aspect, what I currently refer to as Sophroneo (thanks to Lyn87 for cluing me in to that). Creating a foundation of Masculine Godliness is mostly a personal venture that will take time and effort, but not be all that difficult. A good understanding of how feminism has corrupted Christianity will go a long way. The Toolkit aspect is mostly combing through Game teaching and the Classics to find out what is valuable and what isn’t when it comes to attracting women, then sifting for what is compatible with Christianity and weaving it all together. Adoration should come naturally enough when everything else is put together.

(I have a post on Sophroneo I started a couple weeks back and temporarily shelved. I plan to complete it soon).

That’s brings us to Deep Strength. Long-time commenter, he’s recently started his own blog. He has been simply cranking out the posts and is building the framework almost single-handedly. Here he re-establishes the foundations of Christian masculinity, working off Donal’s work:

Each of these qualities build on each other. Out of faith comes moral excellence to progress in God-likeness. And by now knowing what is good (and the one that is good is God) we gain the knowledge of the difference between the flesh and the Spirit. From that we exercise self control which is our free will to choose the Spirit or the flesh, and battling with the flesh over a long period of time we have endurance and patience in the faith. This is what godly masculinity is. Out of faith comes the knowledge and ability to be Christ-like and the application of Christ-likeness.

He sets up the theoretical framework for Christian masculine confidence:

Parrhesia is about a external boldness, especially through the spoke word (rheo), the same word that God used to create the heavens the earth.

Peitho is about an internal confidence, by which we have salvation.

As I discussed heavily in my previous post To game or not to game, we know that out of our hearts come our actions. Therefore, we know that an “internal confidence” must be developed before the “external boldness.”

Thus, Parrhesia is therefore a product of Peitho.

As a Christian man speaking to my brothers in Christ, I would encourage you not to look to develop the “self confidence” that the world loves and that is an illusion of attractiveness, but to love God with all of your heart, soul, and mind/might. This is the confidence that we are called to in Christ that will be attractive to Christian women.

God doesn’t owe you anything (with a correction):

The habits that you build that encourage growth (reading your Bible, prayer, fasting, listening to God, serving others) are self perpetuating and build responsibility. Likewise, the habits that you don’t create in the list above are also self perpetuating. Out of the mindset come actions and actions for habits.

Therefore, riddle me this.

How can God entrust many “Christian nice guys” with wives when they aren’t personally responsible for growth in their own lives and don’t have experience serving others?

Always be on your game:

The always be on “your” game mindset is actually a good one for a Christian to have, except instead of focusing it on “yourself” and always being on “your” game, you should be always on “God’s game.”

Now, all change is hard to effect at first. However, all change will become habit after doing it for extended periods of time. For example, it takes about 4-6 weeks before doing something everyday becomes a habit. This ranges from anything from nutrition, to exercise, to posture, to changes in attitude, to changes in personality, to any other habits that you want to develop.

Change happens slowly, but as you reinforce it everyday it will come. Don’t be afraid to exchange poor habits for good habits. Change for God.

Always be on God’s game.

The fundamental nature of Christianity and how it applies to masculinity and finding a wife:

Therefore, as men of God striving to grow in Him, those of us who want to grow in godly masculinity and who seek a wife need to do two things:

  1. Master our desires so that we are not enslaved by them. This is an exercise of free will, and it is fundamental to the nature of humans. Will you give into temptation or not? Will you choose godliness over evil?
  2. Start to look outwardly — to give freely as Christ has given for us — showing the mastery of Christ in our own body as a witness to others.

To master these concepts is the essence of godly manhood because we know that women look to men for leadership.

The mastery over the desires of the flesh results in elimination of neediness and validation. This changes how you act and what you say, and it will make you more attractive to women.

To master your neediness for a woman is to understand the function of wife to a husband. She is not a completion of you, just a helpmeet to you.

When you expect a woman to meet a need that she is not created to meet, she will become unhappy because she bears a greater burden of responsibility that was not meant to be.

This is the mindset needed to understand the role of a wife in godly marriage, and it will pay dividends in your own search.

On self improvement vs. God improvement:

However, the biggest trap that a Christian man may fall into is that he may get too focused on the improvement “itself,” and neglect to leverage any of the improvement for the gospel or to obey God.

This is the difference between me telling my brothers in Christ to eat right and workout because it will make them more attractive to women, but to eat right and workout because God hates gluttony and slothfulness. Intentions matters. The fact that it may make women more attracted is just a nice side effect of obeying God’s commands.

Therefore, strip off the old habits which are fruitless. Those of laziness, watching TV, surfing the Internet, being fearful of men and women, and the like. And put on new habits to embrace the calling of an ambassador for Christ.

Set your heart on God, and grow in a way that will nurture — or as the PUAs say… bring value to — His kingdom.

Even if you only give a part of your self “improvement” to God, He will take what you give Him and use it for his glory. Then you will know what it means to know that He first called you, and be willing to give him your most important resource that you own: time.

A Christian man leveraging improvement to get a wife is not seeking God first but focusing on the “self.”

Conquer your fear:

So, even though I may fail at times. Even though I may look foolish at times. Even though it’s difficult for me to see the work that God is doing in me. I know that God’s peace within me, my faith in him, and the boldness in how I should act will carry over into a Godly confidence. A confidence in God that is worth more than anything I could hope for and which will allow me to develop into a godly masculine man that is able to walk into the things that God has willed for me in the future.

That alone should be reason enough to start to want to conquer your fears. But if you need extra motivation, a lack of fear has the nice side of effect of being attractive to women. Women can smell fear, like neediness, from a mile away and are repulsed by it.

As you begin to conquer your fear of men rather than God you will find that you will become a godly masculine man that both Christian and non-Christian men and women respect and admire.

He has two posts on Christian nice guys focusing on their neediness and their stunted growth:

This is what Christian men need to learn — don’t change your behaviors for a woman. If you’re going to change your behaviors, then take off the old and put on the new. Do it for God as a new creation in Christ. Never change yourself for a woman.

Women know if you’re saying and doing things because you are trying to impress them. They’ll think it will be amusing and will accept your help. Often with a smile. They’ll thank you profusely. But they won’t be attracted to you. If you’re going to help women do it because you are willing to serve them as a brother in Christ. Women can detect the difference — the neediness of approval and validation that you seek from her — because it will show in your body language. Women are more in tune with subtle social cuing.

Masculinity is forged in difficult situations. To overcome difficult situations, you have to put yourself in uncomfortable situations because the stress of such situations is what is going to force you to adapt or die trying. Whether there is a success or failure there is a learning experience, and it is from a learning experience from which masculinity is going to take hold in the fertile soil and sprout.

However, this is the key. Most boys as they’re learning are willing to fail as they do things. Yet, there is encouragement from the father to keep trying and eventually they succeed. If you challenge boys to impossible situations they will ultimately give up and stop trying eventually often times because they do not know what to do which is making them fail. This is why throwing Christian nice guys into man up marriage situations is a horrendous idea.

On leaving her better than when you found her:

In conclusion, we know that to “leave her better than you found her” you need to:

  1. Let her know that your intention is engagement and/or marriage, but that dating is not a committed relationship so she can “guard her heart.”
  2. Do not act improperly towards her, especially physically.
  3. Start the relationship off right by leading her spiritually which will increase her attraction and respect for you, among other things you should be leading.

The very fact that you if you start leading her spiritually will show you if she is compatible with you, and if she is willing to learn from you.

This will make it exceedingly clear almost right away whether she is a woman who is worthy of marriage, or one who is given over to the things of the world.

She will grow spiritually, if she is willing, and will be better off than how you found her even if you two are not a match.

This is only possible as a Christian masculine man who is walking with God.

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On the other hand, some Christians are defending game. Keoni links it to the Austrian economics concept of praxeology:

While I am not trying to speak for anyone else here, I do believe the defining line between those of us in the MAndrosphere who are nominally Christian and advocate Christian Marriage (Vox, Dalrock et al), and see no conflict between Game and Christian morality, versus all the other Christians who are up in arms about it and repeatedly denounce it, is that those of us in favor, simply view game as a Praxeology; it is not a hard science, nor is it a moral code to live by. Rather, it is simply using deductive reasoning to come up with action axiom’s to describe the hows and whys of human intersexual attraction and mating behaviors.

Vox agrees with Keoni:

With regards to objective Z, as Mises wrote in Human Action, only the acting man can identify the reasons for his actions. So, to claim that Game is immoral, or anti-Christian, is to make a fundamental category error. One might as reasonably claim that a shovel is sinful or learning mathematical equations is anti-Hindu. One can criticize the objectives that Heartiste, or Dalrock, or I seek, and indeed, many feminists and equalitarians and white knights do. But there is nothing even remotely objectionable from any coherent moral standard about the mere knowledge of Game and its mechanisms.

RPP pulls out the Bible and Game of Thrones to defend game:

Did you get that?? ACCORDING TO KNOWLEDGE. Knowledge about how women work. And because she is weaker than you. Your strength, your knowledge, your confidence, your leadership, your dominance. These are the qualities that lead to tingles, and tingles are what lead to submission. She’s not gonna read the Bible and get wet over you. She’s gonna respond to how you treat her. Just like God said she would.

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Reading through this, I’ve been convicted; they speak to some recent personal experiences. I’ve been slacking on my spiritual growth and I’ve allowed myself to become comfortable on my level of improvement in other areas. Time to increase my efforts.

I’ve also changed my blog roll. If you think you’re in the wrong category and would like to be moved, feel free to leave a comment or message me.

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Responses to Alternatives

This was going to be a part of the next Lightning Round, but it was threatening to take over the post, and it’s too important.

There has been an ongoing debate on Christianity and game. It sparked again recently at GBFM, Donal’s, Zippy’s, and Cane’s.

So, I asked what the alternative to game was for Christians. The thread blew up. I’m not even going to try to address the comments; there’re too many. I have read them all though.

Here’re some of the highlights, but I’d heavily recommend reading all the linked posts, not just the blurbs I put up.

Cane responded to my post; he seems to have taken my lament as a criticism of him and others in the Christian ortho-manosphere, when it was not intended as such.

To correct my error of ungratefulness, I wish to express gratitude here to Cane, and to all the others in the ortho-manosphere who have contributed their wisdom. It would be hard to overstate the value of the wisdom I have received from all those on my blogroll and those regularly comment at said blogs.

I responded to Cane here. Cane responded to some other responses here and here. In these he pointed out one thing I need to work on.

Limit yourself to a maximum of two of those nerdy hobbies, and over the course of a week spend less than one hour a day on them. So if you spend seven hours playing Call of Duty on a Saturday: No video games or other nerd hobbies for the rest of the week. Then put the rest of that time into more productive and attractive activities. Nobody gets docked by sane people for lifting weights, reading the Bible, taking walks, Sudoku, writing, cooking, painting, woodworking, or any number of other things. Here’s a generalization on how to know if a hobby is nerdy. If, at the end of the hobby’s endeavor, you don’t have a new product, life experience, or life skill: It’s probably nerdy. Collecting or buying baubles does not count as production.

Something I should work on.

Simon Grey responded to the post, blaming fear rather than awkwardness:

I do believe the phrase “awkward Christian man” is an oxymoron. A more accurate way of capturing reality would be “awkward churchian male.” Why? Because, “God has not given us a spirit of fear.”

Remember Christ’s exhortation to, “not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul[, b]ut rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” If Christ tells those who are his followers to not be afraid of death, then just why the fuck should any of them be afraid to talk to women? Why should they be afraid to be honest with women (or anyone, for that matter)? If you see a girl at church, think she’s pretty, and want to go out with her, why are you too much of a coward to simply tell her that you think she’s pretty and you want to take her out? You’re not supposed to fear death, so why would you fear a girl? Even if she is a succubus, you still shouldn’t fear her.
….
That said, it seems the biggest problem that a lot of Church-going males have is that they are still quite ruled by fear. They can’t look people in the eyes and speak directly to them. They may eventually need to learn some social tact, but for now the bigger problem is fear.

Keoni replies to both Cane and myself:

Discovering “Game” was my game changer.

It gave me a language to describe and think about so many things I previously could not even name, let alone comprehend.

It provided a schema for grasping the larger concepts bereft in my emasculated upbringing. And ultimately, it has also  eventually brought me around full circle into belief in the truth of the Gospel of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Discovering “Game” was my game changer. It gave me a language to describe and think about so many things I previously could not even name, let alone comprehend. It provided a schema for grasping the larger concepts bereft in my emasculated upbringing. And ultimately, it has also  eventually brought me around full circle into belief in the truth of the Gospel of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Without discovering the red pill of game, I doubt I ever would have came to this realization and recognize this idolatry for what it is, nor broken free from it’s ritualistic worship. And I’m not the only one.

Thanks to the socially engineered sexual and cultural revolutions, the transmission of modeled masculinity via Patrimony has been decimated. Many of us raised in the environment of crippled or non-existent Patrimony were never given the example to emulate. So the only other choice we do have, is to study and practice a systematic method to develop our own, individual expression of our chosen art form.

But like any systematic study of an art form, the study and practice of techniques is only a regimented means of developing a skill set and muscle memory to be able to move without thought.

Vox provided a small bit in response to Keoni:

Now, Game is not Christ. Game is not Truth. But Game is truth, and he who comes to love truth will, in time, come to love Truth as well. At the very least, the truth-seeker has set himself upon the rocky and difficult path that leads to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Vox also responded to GBFM’s attack on game. It’s not a response to me, but is related:

This does not mean both teachings are equally truthful nor does it mean they are the same. Indeed, it is not at all hard to identify the differences between them. However, it must be admitted that the Bible gives considerably less in the way of direction to Man concerning how he should behave towards women in specific circumstances than the Chateau does. It is silent on recommendations concerning text messaging, just to give one example.

I am a Christian. If you want my absolute core advice, it is this: Fear God.

Now, I could simply post that every day, and it would certainly be easier to do so, but I don’t see how it would be of much use to anyone. I could also limit my subjects addressed to Christian evangelism, but I don’t really have much more to say on that than I already say. However, I have seen that there is a tremendous amount that needs to be said, and that people have not heard before, concerning intersexual relations and their effect upon our society. That’s why I started this blog. And so that is what I address here.

I have great respect for Roissy, for Heartiste, and for Dalrock. I even have a fair amount of respect for GBFM. We are all part of the same great cultural battle for the mind and soul of the West, which has been deeply corrupted by Marxism, by equalitarianism, by secular humanism, by atheism, and by feminism. But the fact that GBFM’s heart may be more or less in the right place does not excuse the abandonment of the truth.

There is only one Christianity and that is the one defined by the Lordship, not merely the teachings, of Man’s Savior, Jesus Christ.

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Throughout all this the commenters were very active. Here’s a few comments I want to highlight.

Aquinas Dad gave a good practical list for self-improvement techniques. I look forward to his book:

I told you, above, what to do. You need a step by step? Sure!
1) Set a regular schedule. When you get up, when you go to sleep, etc. so that you get good sleep as often as you can. Stick to it
2) Eat regular, healthy meals.
3) Sit down and decide what you want out of life. Make a list of, oh, the top three things you want. Now, take each thing and divide it into the steps you think you need to take to get there. For example, ‘I want to own a home with 3 bedrooms in a safe neighborhood’ – locate neighborhoods; price homes; calculate the down payment and the mortgage payments; calculate how long it will take you to save for the down payment; etc.
4) Start working on the first step of each goal.
– keep the goals written down and on you at all times. Look at them once a day
-every other week sit down and examine your progress. Write down how you are doing and how you can improve, if you need to
-once each three months re-evaluate your plan – were you too ambitious? Too cautious? Adjust as you need
-every six months re-evaluate your goals: should you change them?
5) If you are not social join groups and attend. Start with something simple like, oh, book readings. You can avoid a lot of talking (sometimes *all* talking) and get used to being around strangers in a low-stress public space. Then try something a bit more interactive like an evening cooking class for adults. Work up to groups that are part of shared interests, like rafting, or books, or anime, or whatever.
6) look at what you waste time on. Ever catch yourself flipping through the channels because nothing is on? yeah, stop that. read books; good books. Read classics, non-fiction, stuff related to your goals, etc. Do you have a friend that just complains, complains, complains and isn’t there for you? yeah – spend time with other people.
7) Exercise every day even if it is just walking around the block at first. Make it part of your schedule to replace the time wasters you threw out. Make a separate *reasonable* plan to improve your fitness over time. Adjust it like you do your other goals.
8) Stop lying. Start with ‘to yourself’. Don’t be rude, but be honest. “How do I look?” “I like you better in red”; “Do you think I should quit my job?” “Yes/no”; etc.
9) Spend two months tracking all of your expenses. Every nickel. Write it all down. Now, make a budget that gets rid of all the stupid waste and stick to it. Save. Avoid debt as best you can.
10) Think about every purchase you are making. Do you need it or want it? Is it part of your goals or not? Is there a way to get this cheaper?
11) Pick something that makes you nervous/scared. Now do something that makes you confront it. Afraid of heights? Take a footbridge every week. When that doesn’t make you nervous anymore move up to, oh, walking a cliff-edge trail, whatever. Then move on to the next thing.
12) Remember those group activities, above? Well, use them to get to know women without planning on dating or sleeping with them. Learn what you really want and like in women (If you aren’t familiar with women you might be wrong/not know).
13) Once you feel you know what you like and want ask a woman to coffee or something just to talk. Get to know her better on this outing. Try to simply enjoy it and try to have her enjoy the time, too. Be up-front you are interested in knowing her better, thank you.
Now, do it again with a different woman. And then another. Don’t hide this (no lying includes no deception) just honestly tell them you want to know them better.
The goal is to make sure you really do know what you like and want and that you can actually detect it in a woman.
14) Now that you are sure you know what you want [side note. BE HONEST about this. You might think you *should* like, oh, blondes with huge tracts of land, but if you really like shy brunettes under 5’4″ well, there you are. Don’t lie to yourself) start looking for it. Continue to enjoy your time in groups, continue to build friendships, but look for what you want.

Earl (get a blog) writes on the nature of game:

As addressed earlier, the reason why Christians are going to game sites is because they TELL them a system. It may not always work and I do believe it is a placebo but it stresses doing something and points out the dark nature of females which has been well covered up by the other side. The advice on which women to avoid alone is worth the reads. Consider all the “man up and marry the slut” shaming from Christian leaders…those aren’t prudent woman. Now I have a good filter to know what a prudent wife is should the Lord give me that gift.

I was not given anything explicitly from my father, the church, society, etc…other than “be yourself and be good”. Everything was more or less implied…but that is tough to get when you have so many different areas of propaganda being thrown at you and most are to ruin your masculinity. How are we supposed to know that when nobody explicitly points that out in the churches? Do most men outside the sphere realize how much they are being emasculated daily? Do most men know what they are doing that shows active emasculation? I doubt it because I see it all the time in the area I live. The only ones that haven’t are like fish in water…they’ve always been that way and never consider that others are outside that water.

And I say you can separate the good from the bad given that you are asking God for wisdom…fornicating is sinning, getting your butt off the couch and working out is good. Passive aggressive tricks with women is bad…going up, overcoming your fear, having outcome independence and talking to a woman you are interested in is good. Game causes a man to be effeminate through doing, and many other place tell men to be effeminate by being.

To sum up…pray and ask God for the tools you need in your particular situation (because He knows more than you or anybody else will)…then stop being afraid, get off your butt, and use those tools to the best of your abilities. I can give my list of what I do as ideas…but it will not be your list. The common theme of the lists is that it better produce.

Chad writes on the mission:

God is not a system. You don’t put in a quarter and expect to get a gumball or candy. You especially cannot expect to have any sort of Justice served to you in this fallen world; only in the perfection of Heaven can you find true Justice and Mercy.

Is that to say that you should not try? No, if anything, you should try harder. Take up your cross and learn what it is to be Christian. You have no foresight on if God is using this time to form you into a better husband for your future wife, if he’s giving you the tools for your future marriage to prosper instead of falling into ruin, or any other of the numerous mysteries God might have in store for you.

Stop using a fallen world as an excuse. Use every gift God gave you to collect more for his harvest, and realize that every time you go out of the house to do that, any single female you meet could be your future wife. Stop and talk to them. Take your time, have patience, and give your Godly Masculinity to the world. Your cup will run empty. And God will refill it fuller than it was before.

Beyond the responses to my post, the foundations of Christian masculinity are being laid, but this post already huge, so I’ll address this in a post to come.