Tag Archives: Morality

Alternatives to Game

Lately, discussion of game and Christianity has been occurring in the Orthosphere, led by GBFM, Donal, Zippy, and Cane. I don’t disagree with many of the conclusions of the anti-gamers. There is probably a lot of the placebo effect to “game”. Although, there is also evidence that dark triad traits, which game attempts to mimic, are attractive, while being a nice guy isn’t.

I do find though,  that a lot of the Christian, “is game acceptable?”, debate really boils down to defining “game”. Nobody comes to terms before discussion, so the conversation almost always turns into a bunch of people talking past each other.

I myself have gone back and forth on game.

Either way, chasing flags and notches is an empty, joyless, if sometimes pleasurable, way to live. Roosh’s personal reflections over the last year or so provide ample example of that. No Christian should participate in it, and, even according to game advocates, even most non-Christians are simply not suited for it and would be better of finding an average girl and marrying. “Game” in the gimmicky, manipulative, player sense is something to avoid; at best it is a stop-gap.

But, men should instead focus on building themselves up. Instead of focusing on gimmicks, men should focus on improving themselves and being the kind of man who would have the kind of life they desire. Focus on the core, what some call inner game, and you will be attractive to the type of woman you want in your life.

****

This being said, I don’t think all game is a placebo. While I avoid the immoral and gimmicky parts of game, some of the more straightforward and practical social skills and body language advice is useful.  One of the earlier posts which made me take Roissy seriously, was this post on contraposta. Simply standing differently, and having a way I could purposefully stand, did wonders for my confidence. Just off the top of my head, other such tactical posts that helped me immensely include Simon Grey’s eye contact post and Roissy’s statement-statement-question.

Little practical things like these can work wonders and give socially awkward men like me something firm to hold onto.

****

All this being said though, whether you are pro-game, or anti-game, there is something you can agree on. So, what if, as Zippy says:

Game (understood as the pickup artist’s toolkit specifically) is actually pretty lousy in terms of effectiveness, right on par with placebo.  Doing something (and learning from the experience, and being persistent, and building confidence) is far better than doing nothing; but once you extract taking action at all, persistence, confidence, and learning through experience from the equation, the part of Game that is left over (that is, Game itself) – at least according to the “best of the best” PUA themselves – doesn’t do much for your percentages.

Let’s say game is mostly a placebo. Let’s say that its only real effect is to give awkward guys something to latch onto so they have a place to start developing confidence and acting. Let’s say, game is simply doing something.

This leads directly to the question, what else is there? As I’ve said before:

There is nothing else.

If you are an awkward, nerdy male, the only people willing and able to teach you practical advice for attracting women are the PUAs. I’ve checked. There is simply no one outside the manosphere teaching men how to meet a pleasant, moderately pretty girl for a stable long-term relationship.

I’ve read a number of Christian books and articles on dating, but they all assume a woman is attracted to you. They are either discussions of what kind of dating is appropriate and exhortations against sin or man up articles on how to avoid sex in relationships, how to avoid leading women on, and how to be firm in your intentions. There is almost no practical advice on how to actually attract a girl in first place so that the other advice has any relevance.

(For any Christian manospherians reading this, here’s a great book idea: write a guide to help awkward Christian guys attract a Christian wife. Market it in the Christian culture industry and you’d make a killing. I’d write it, but I’m not qualified at this point.)

Going outside the Christian stuff, everywhere else you look the socially awkward male is given the same advice: be yourself and be a nice guy, she’ll come… eventually.

Guess what?

We already do that: it doesn’t work. If it did work, we wouldn’t be looking for advice.

For women (and church leaders and others who may care): if you do not want awkward guys going to PUA’s for advice on attracting women, offer a viable alternative.

The only reason I started taking guys like Roissy or Roosh even remotely seriously was because they were the first people I found anywhere who gave enough of a shit to give some practical, useful advice. I haven’t adopted either game or playerhood, but I have tried some of their more morally neutral advice and it has been useful. (I’m now more influenced by the Athol/Dalrock approach).

How royally screwed up is it that self-proclaimed assholes like Roissy and Mentu are the only ones honest and selfless enough to give practical advice to the awkward guy looking for companionship (even if they mock us while they do it)?

Zippy, GBFM, Cane, and the rest can criticize game all they want, they might even be, probably are, right. But it doesn’t matter.

There is no alternative.

If I, as an awkward, nerdy Christian man, want practical, actionable advice on finding and attracting a nice Christian wife, game is the only place to go.

Without the game advice of these “low value dirt bags and sexual garbage collectors”, I never would have been able to approach this girl. I never would have gotten this date. I’ve had more dates in the last year than in my whole life prior, and a lot of it comes down to the advice and help I got from these “dirt bags.”

Without the advice and encouragement of them, without the practice from my previous dates, I probably would have awkwardly blown out the first date with the girl I’m currently courting.

None of these dates or approaches involved gimmicks, sleaze, or even anything resembling the popular perception of game. They were all simple, straightforward, well-intentioned interactions that nobody would or could think ill of.

But game advice gave me something to latch onto. It gave me practical steps I could take to improve myself. Was it a placebo? Possibly. But some of it was real. (The simple advice to not follow around a girl you like like a love-sick puppy alone was worth its weight in gold).

It was something practical I could do to improve myself and become better at social interactions with.

Roissy, Roosh, et al. may be self-professed degenerate scum but what is Zippy* providing?

This is the problem. What are the Christian man’s alternatives?

My Omega’s Guide was a start. I tried to make a practical guide to self-improvement anyone could use while avoiding “game”. Donal puts out a lot good theory, Chad’s stories are excellent sources of some Christian attraction principles put in practice, Vox throws out a fair amount of Christian game, and Athol puts out good, but non-Christian, advice for married men. A few other Christian blogs from my roll put out the occasional advice post.

Of these, Vox and Athol are the only names even remotely well-known and the only ones who have successfully found a wife and there sites is the gamiest and least Christian, respectively, of them all.

The awkward Christian man’s sources of information for attracting a wife without game are few unknowns who have plucked the pearls from the vast library of information the degenerates put out and have tried to apply it, but haven’t even found a wife for themselves.

So, give us something. Where is the church? Where is the help from the pro-marriage, anti-game moralizers to help us?

I don’t need another exhortation to man up, I’ve had enough of those. I don’t need another post telling me the greatness of marriage. I don’t need another lecture on servant-leadership; I’m drowning in those. I don’t need another sermon on avoiding fornication; I’ve been listening to those since before I knew what sex was. I don’t need more don’t do this, don’t do that; I need more do this.

Where is the practical Christian advice that will help me find a wife? Where can I find advice so the good Christian girl’s description of me to her friends isn’t “ew”?

Without that, all the rest of this debate over game is just noise and thunder signifying nothing. Awkward Christian men will go the degenerate dirt bags, because our choices are either try to pick the occasional nugget of truth from the hedonists and hope we don’t become corrupted by them or live the rest of our lives in grinding loneliness and sexual frustration.

If you don’t like game, give us an alternative.

****

Being opposed to complaining without providing a solution, I will point any Christian men reading this and looking for answers to my Omega’s Guide. It should provide some good advice I’ve painfully learned through the last 7 or 8 years. At some point, I’m going to arrange it into a self-published ebook for easier distribution.

Once I’m married and can speak with real authority on the subject, I plan to write a book on finding and attracting a Christian wife (probably cribbing heavily from the Omega’s Guide). I might even try hocking this to the various Christian publishers.

****

* I realize this is unfair to Zippy, and mean no offence, he’s not making a relationship blog and he isn’t professing to, but neither is anyone else.

Advertisements

Addressing Your N-Count

There was a strong reaction to a link I posted concerning some red pill women advising other women to lie about their N-count.The Ringmistress stated in the comments:

What I keep running up against is that while I can do a pretty good job arguing for remaining a virgin until marriage, I have no clue what a person who isn’t should say if they repent of their past and want to make a go at a chaste courtship.

So, as a young Christian man looking to find a wife, I’ll answer.

For any woman considering lying about how many men she slept with, the answer is always don’t (at least if you plan to have the relationship be long-term; if it’s a simple fling, it probably doesn’t matter).

I can not stress how important it is for women not to lie, dissemble, avoid answering, or otherwise conceal the truth about how many men they slept with prior to a partner they hope to be in a long-term relationship or marriage with.

A relationship built on a lie is not healthy. The truth will eventually come out (one of your friends will eventually accidentally mention Steve) and when it does, the consequences for lying will be what the consequences for lying usually are.

As for avoidant answers: any man with any self-respect and options who hears “it’s in the past”, “it’s none of your business”, “it doesn’t matter, I’m with you now”, etc. will consign you to the short-term, pump n’ dump, or just plain dump categories.

So, the question then becomes how should a woman inform a man she’s considering a long-term relationship with that she’s slept with many other men?

First, realize that he likes you. If he’s dating you and a long-term relationship is a realistic possibility, he is very favourably disposed towards you (or exceedingly desperate, but we’ll ignore that). A man in love with a women will look on anything she tells him in the best possible light; the haze of infatuation can cover many more sins than you possibly realize. If you address the issue properly, odds are it will cause some troubles (as sins do) but won’t end the relationship. If it would end the relationship, it is far better for it to occur now than during the engagement or after five years of marriage.

Don’t be afraid of telling him.

Second, don’t bring it up first. There’s no need to. If he asks, tell him, but some men honestly don’t care. If he doesn’t bring it up, there’s no need for you to go out of your way to volunteer the information apropos of nothing. If he doesn’t bring it up, and only if he doesn’t bring it up, he might simply prefer not to know or not care. If he doesn’t, don’t worry about it. If he does ask or even mention its, he definitely cares, so definitely tell him.

Third, be honest. Honesty is by far the most important thing. Do not lie, do not be evasive, don’t “be cute”, don’t underestimate, don’t exclude those times that ‘don’t count’, don’t conceal anything, etc. Tell the full and honest truth. Also, yes, oral sex and anal sex do count, as does sex that ‘didn’t mean anything’, one night stands, sex in foreign countries, and ‘just that one time in high school’. If it comes to mind, it counts.

Fourth, the exact number probably doesn’t matter, but do not lie about the number or give a false impression. Whether it was 6 or 8 likely won’t matter, whether if was 14 or 18 won’t matter. Unless he asks for a specific number, once it’s over five or so, the specific number if not really of importance, the range is. If it’s under five, just tell him the straight number. ‘Many’ is a legitimate answer for anything over 5 (‘a few’ is not; a few means less than five), but will likely prompt calls for clarification. ‘High single digits’ or the exact number works for anything under 10.  ‘About a dozen’ is a legitimate answer for anything from 10-15. ‘About 20’ will work for any number from 15-23. ‘A few dozen’ will work for anything over 24, but under 50. ‘Over 50’ or ‘over 100’ (really?) is sufficient for anything beyond that. You do not have to be specific, unless he asks for specifics, but you have to be truthful. If you would honestly use the descriptor in everyday life for the accurate measurement of the quantity of mundane things, then it’s fine to use as a descriptor here.

Fifth, realize exactly how important this issue is. You may try to delude yourself that it doesn’t matter, that it’s a small thing, etc. Many crooked souls and diseased minds will tell you the same. Do not listen to them. It matters.

If you’re a Christian, reading Deuteronomy 22 should be more than enough information on how important God views this issue as. Fornication is a sin against God, against yourself, and against your future spouse. Do not belittle exactly how sinful it is. All sin has worldly consequences; fornication is not an exception. There will be earthly consequences for violating God’s law.

If you are a non-Christian, know that the single biggest risk factor a woman has for divorce is the number of sexual partners she had prior to marriage. Having one premarital partner doubles the risk of divorce, two partners triples it. Sex has immensely strong neuro-chemical effects that bond you with sexual partners; the more you have bonded with, the less bonding will occur with further partners.

Whatever hedonists and libertines may tell you, having numerous sexual partners seriously hurts people’s abilities to bond with intimate partners. Your numbers prior to your current partner do matter. Do not take it less seriously than it deserves.

The amount of men you’ve had sex with does matter to your partner, it is his business, and he’s not being a judgmental asshole by asking. (The same goes for vice versa; men, if your long-term girl asks, answer truthfully). Trying to shame him into not inquiring as a short-sighted thing to do.

Sixth, be genuinely repentant. This matters a lot. Once you realize the gravity of your previous sinful actions, repentance should be your desire. You should be genuinely repentant and sorrowful that you have harmed your marriage through your actions prior to marriage and it should show through in both word and deed. There should be no pride, no excuses, no indignation that he would ask, no accusations of judgmentalism, no “born-again virgin” nonsense, etc. Simply ask his forgiveness. You should display be nothing but authentic remorse and humility for misguided actions. If you don’t feel genuine remorse and aren’t truly repentant, than you don’t understand the gravity of your prior actions. Read your Bible, particularly those sections on sexual sin, more and/or truly try to understand the statistics linked above until you do; you are not ready for marriage until you truly understand this.

Seventh, do not bring up prior partners with him outside of this specific discussion. Never compare him in bed to anyone else. Never talk wistfully about past partners. Never idly wonder out-loud about past partners. Don’t have any keepsakes. Etcetera, etcetera. It’s simple, never bring up anything that has to do with previous sex partners.

(The widow is an obvious exception. It is fine to keep some momentos of a dead spouse and to occasionally mention him, but still avoid comparisons. The other exception is in a serious, humble talk with other women, to show them the error of licentious living.)

Eighth, have no expectations or demands. You do not ‘deserve’ to have him marry you (and he does not ‘deserve’ you). Just because he forgives you, because God’s forgives you, does not mean that there are no consequences. He is completely justified in breaking it off for your past actions. Do not guilt him for his reaction, do not demand he remain yours, do not pressure him, do not question his manhood, etc. Simply be humble, ask his forgiveness, await his answer, and accept his decision.

That’s it. In a nutshell, be honest, be repentant, be discreet, and recognize your actions for what they truly are.

Realize that there will be earthly consequences. He might break-up with you, you will hurt him, you will be hurt yourself, there may be long-term distrust or other long-term issues. The earthly consequences of sin do not disappear simply because you are forgiven by God, or even if you are forgiven by man.

Of course, all this can be avoided by being chaste, that’s by far the better option if you ever want to marry.